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Thread: Archive through September 29, 2004 |
    
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 392
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:19 pm: |
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Gentlemen,
Very lively thread and debate. I will revisit it when I'm not so tired and can have a coherent thought. This week has found me being held captive alternately by Mr. Gates and Mr. B. Not sure which indentured service is worse but am leaning towards Mr B since I at least get a paycheck from Mr. Gates.
Despite the delivery last Saturday of the new Mac, today is the first day I've been able to plug it in and, so far, no love per above post. The week has been filled with overtime at the office followed by evenings of painting walls and the dreaded furniture shopping - which has left me depressed - and that was before the Mac failed to show me some love. The furniture I like I cannot afford. The furniture I can afford is imported from China. As I live in a region steeped in furniture making tradition, it just seems wrong to buy furniture imported from China carrying labels such as "American Traditions". Alas, I may be forced to exercise what my wallet allows and give the middle finger to my conscience. |
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Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 393
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:21 pm: |
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Holy cow! I wonder if nun has something to do with the soundless Mac?? |
SACDude Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:27 pm: |
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The sound of silence. Ah, yes. The good Ms. Cabriolet suffers from it - and yet Mr. Vigne remembers it as being magical, as in first-sight experiences of Santa Fe at Christmas. Well, then, on with the philosophical discussion!
Mr. Vigne would dissemble to the maximum, and have us all believe that he sits there in the center of American Wealth - without being distorted or polluted by his environment. Good for him! How few of us can honestly claim that.
On with your technical help, please! A woman in need is a woman to be pitied, because the "fair sex" usually out-thinks the mundane male three-to-one. She needs help? It must be a true crisis! To the fore, gents!!!!!!
Ah, Mr. Vigne - one gets led around by what one worships, or aspires to in life. Think on that.
Away to some fine victuals and a tad of the ole grape, while watching on television the travails of relatives in Florida, where hurricanes appear to be everyday nemeses!
Caveat emptor, all - with thanks. |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1543
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:33 pm: |
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yo ghia sometimes there are tape monitor buttons
on systemns and with that on you will get no sound
unless you have something hooked to the ins and outs
of the tape area.
try hooking up a dvd player or cd to the aux input then
look for any tape monitor buttons try all positions on them.
just a thought!
i've seen it before or a mute? |
SACDude Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:44 pm: |
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Re-reading (carefully) above columns leads me to a small addition to my earlier word-production.
Corporate America has ONLY itself in mind when creating products. "We" only exist if we purchase enough product, and are unable to present a viable legal obstacle to their proliferation.
And Adam Smith was, in young-person terms, a "wuss." IMHO - is that right? (not sure) |
SACDude Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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To Ms. Cabriolet. Is there a "reset" button or hole into which you poke a wire? There was such on one of my earlier amplifiers, and it actually worked! Hoping for you. . . |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 394
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:54 pm: |
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Thanks, Kegger. It's not the tape monitor. In fact, I've pushed those buttons on and off while trying the CD connected to the tape monitors. I set this one up exactly like the last Mac so I don't think I've done anything wrong. Except for maybe buying it. Sorry, that's just frustration rearing its ugly head. I've tried multiple sources, multiple inputs, multiple cable interconnects, multiple speakers, multiple speaker wires. Nothing. It's a damn shame. This one is in pristine condition, no broken glass, no scratches but, unfortunately, no sound. Could a bad fuse cause this? There's a fuse at the back near the power cord. |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 395
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:20 pm: |
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Well, SACDude was right about " the "fair sex" usually out-thinks the mundane male three-to-one."
I figured it out without any help from the mundane male. On the back of the damaged amp, I noticed the pre-amp outputs had jumpers in them. So, I took those off the damaged amp and put them on the new one and voila! Sound! Jan, do you need the jumpers on the amp I'm sending to you?
I believe today is the first time I've posted since SACDude started posting here. Welcome! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1544
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:58 pm: |
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glad you got it ghia.
if i'd known that unit had those it would have been my first sugestion!
sorry very few units have those and i don't know your unit.
but hey as long as you got it thats all that matters.
and no jan won't need those. if he doesn't have any all it takes
is a piece of metal which he can make.
just in case you don't know what those are for.
they connect the preamp section to the amp section in the unit,
so you could use either part seperatly.
glad to hear your alright! happy macin!
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2124
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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Well done, Ghia. You got there. I was puzzling about where to start from "no sound". Seems the HiFi News guys swear by McIntosh amps, too. I missed how it came about that you got a new one. Was it on this thread?
There is a big and interesting discussion brewing, as you see. I do not think this format of posting on a forum can sustain discussion for long. I have promised to post back on several things which will be ruthless changes of topic when they come up. So many things to say. If I may, your coming in with the problems of no time and dissatisfaction with what you can afford sort of underlines Jan's point and I think mine. Modern societies place power with those who stimulate our dissatisfactions, to get us to spend. So we work harder to get less happy. I don't think the problem is unique to America. I have this old-fashioned idea that individuals can and should choose, and this is the only antidote. My grumblings about hidden agendas in consumer electronics are written with this in mind. Yet they seem to touch a raw nerve somewhere.
Let me draw your attention to my post, above, Friday, September 24, 2004 - 01:18 pm. I somehow think you would be fascinated by that DVD, especially after the Mahler debate on "Discoveries".
I watched the other part. "Aslya" by Thomas Adés. Whew. It is surreal. Sonically and visually fascinating. Percussion effects include slamming the lid on a piano keyboard, beating tin cans, dropping sounding gongs into water. I kept waiting for Pink Floyd's inflatable pig. It did not show up, but it would not, to me, have seemed out of place. I'll give it another go. One can always learn. The Mahler 5 (main item) is just gorgeous. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2125
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:41 pm: |
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Kegger,
I wondered what the jump leads were for. Thanks. That is a good idea. All amps should have that.
SACDude,
Please, what is a "wuss"...?
Ghia got there by having another amp to compare. It is so good to have at least two of everything, so you can swap and see what difference it makes. Half of this forum is questions from people who have a complex system they cannot experiment with, to work things out for themselves. That is another reason for holding on to your old gear, apart from it often being better than the new stuff.
New trick. Off-line someone told me how to get iTunes to send DTS to a TOS-link input from Airport Express. My local shops do not have, and have never heard of, Tos-link to minijack adapters, so I cannot try it. Apple sell an overpriced "connection kit" from Harmon Kardon (can never spell that).
To repeat, "The industry" fears networking most of all. I think they should. That analogue-only connection in DVD-A/SACD is there to prohibit copying, no more, no less. I do hope the industry discovers people can't press their own LPs, and that is a way to go..... BTW SACDude, I think it is not the electronics that makes SACD secure, it is encryption, a software issue. I doubt it can be cracked. Even if it can, there will not be one key for all SACDs and players. The Denon x910 does processing (bass management etc) on LPCM, and converts SACD into LPCM before doing so, so I would think that is the thing to do: intercept the LPCM out of a Denon, and rip that. But we would all be better off if the files were in LPCM in the first place. I do believe that. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:51 pm: |
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Sorry, I was having dinner with some friends who invited themselves over. No problem, there is always pasta ready to fix if they supply the bread. Who's counting carbs? Farfalle rules!
"Mr. Vigne would dissemble to the maximum, and have us all believe that he sits there in the center of American Wealth - without being distorted or polluted by his environment. Good for him! How few of us can honestly claim that."
No, I have been swayed by my surroundings. But I live in a historic district here in Dallas. One of the first in the nation to gain preservation status, which is unusual for Dallas. This city's attitude is "new and improved", thirty years old and a building is ready to be torn down. The historic districts in Dallas all sit on the South side. The Money in Dallas is all to the North of Downtown. To make a living I had to drive to another part of Dallas than where I live and, in so doing, twice a day I drove through areas that many citizens of Dallas don't want to know exist. The section of Dallas that I live in is called Oak Cliff. To those who have never been South of LBJ Highway, Oak Cliff is where they find the bodies on Sunday morning. To those of us who prefer a house that looks different from all our neighbor's homes, Oak Cliff is one of the most attractive parts of Dallas with 100 foot tall Pecans an Oaks in front of 5,000 sqaure foot homes that once belonged to the finest citizens of Dallas, people who had schools and libraries named for them. But I don't have to go far from home to see those less fortunate than I am.
This is a city where the divisions of wealth are quite obvious no matter what part you are in. I sold to those at the upper end of comfortable for 25 years and I had many nights when the drive home was uncomfortable. I'm sure I've mentioned it here on the forum before but I found it very difficult to talk about $5,000 phono cartridges and then, thirty minutes later, drive past an apartment house where the young mother with her children looked as if she had no idea where her next meal would come from. And I have had my experiences where I can see first hand how fortunes can reverse in the blink of an eye. I am also aware that I talk a much better game than I play. There are so many that work to make things better for everyone every day while I mostly sit and complain. I have some degree of self awareness that comes from being near death several times in my life. That term "technically dead" is a rather odd phrase when you find yourself still breathing in a week or so. But I can fool myself as easily as the next person when I want to. I own the McIntosh amps not because I had the great fortune to lead a lifestyle that could accommodate luxuries but, instead, by merely being in the right place at the right time.
"Ah, Mr. Vigne - one gets led around by what one worships, or aspires to in life. Think on that."
And if what you aspire to is what you worship you become blind to all else. Or at least that has been my experience.
Ghia - glad you got things figured out. I doubt I would have thought to tell you to look for those jumpers as the person that sold the amp to you must have known they were missing. It was not as RatBastard stupid as your first seller but this was a matter of a small note to tell you the jumpers weren't in place. I hope the Mac gives you some "quiet time". Enjoy.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:56 pm: |
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I await the technical defintion of "wuss".
The little I know of Mr. Smith, I would say he wasn't exactly a "wuss" but more someone who had not found his aspirations at that point in his life.
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2126
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:58 pm: |
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Rick,
"Out of the box interconnects??? Please say it isn't so John! (LOL)". Well, I have them on system 2. Can't tell the difference, really. I suppose I could get obessive and set up double-blind trials etc. I keep getting distracted by the music. Here's the back of my system 1 receiver. If I bought "high-end" cables for that lot, it would cost more than the house. This was taken before Airport Express, it is now even more complicated. I feed that into tape monitor, the only input left that is not on the front panel. I feel that life is too short to worry about cables.
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Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 396
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:05 am: |
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Kegger, I'm 2-0. How are you doing?
JohnA,
My musings regarding dissatisfaction of what I can afford must have been coincidental as I haven't made it through the recents posts yet. Saving it for tomorrow when, hopefully, my mind won't be so fogged. But, to comment on your statement "we work harder to get less happy"...how very true and so much of it is societal pressure brought on by corporate marketing. It is something I've been thinking about for a couple of years and it factors into my purchase decisions more frequently now. Your philosophy " individuals can and should choose" is right on. Unfortunately, this is sometimes more expensive. I would prefer to support the independent, family owned, local furniture manufacturer, Robert Bergelin Company but a bed from there costs as much as an entire bedroom suit from the big companies that import their goods. Still, their quality is so superior it may be more painful financially in the short term but the furniture will last a lifetime and may be more cost effective over the long run. Also, agree about "hidden agendas" which are most definitely a part of consumer electronics and the computer industry.
Intriguing insights on the Mahler 5 DVD. If I recall correctly, you were sceptical over Mahler's Adagietto being a "love song" to Alma and thought of it more as an ego trip? Have you changed your perspective? :-) I will definitely pick this up. Of course, I still have to put my surround system back together....can you believe I have not listened to it in 3 weeks?!
The "new" MA6200 purchase was mentioned much earlier in this thread but I didn't mention it much until I was able to get a settlement on the damaged amp. Found the new one on Audiogon and got it for the same amount I paid for the first one. It is gorgeous! Not a single scratch, the glass is pristine, the knobs are shiny, the chrome is flawless. And the sound!
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2127
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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That post must now appear as a total non sequitur. Sorry. It was not that when I started it. Mr Vigne on Dallas etc. was far more interesting. |
Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet
NC
Post Number: 397
Registered: Apr-04
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:27 am: |
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Main Entry: wuss
Pronunciation: 'wus
Variant(s): also wus·sy /'wu-sE/
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural wuss·es also wus·sies
Etymology: origin unknown
: WIMP
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2128
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:30 am: |
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...as is Ghia. This thread is getting tangled. I need high-end cables, well screened, to minimize cross-talk.
"Have you changed your perspective?"
Yes! Part of it was the interview with Simon Rattle. I won't spoil it. He descibes the Adagietto as something you cannot post on this forum, I should think. Apparently Alma worked as a copyist, transcribing the individual parts from Mahler's score, and she alone knew what he meant. I can only keep my cynical guard up for so long. Shame she dumped him. After that, they should have emigrated to Pennsylvania and had twelve children.
Thanks for the comments, Ghia. All well received, and appreciated. |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2129
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:43 am: |
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Thanks again Ghia. Adam Smith was no wimp, or wuss. "The Wealth of Nations" is a book that shaped the world we live in. He believed that any honest transaction in a free market, motivated purely by individual self-interest, nevertheless works for the public good, as if guided by an invisible hand. My complaint is we do not have his free market. We've never tried it, really. Too many vested interests. It's a bit like what others think about communism: "great idea in theory, but it doesn't work". Actually, I always thought it was a crazy idea. Maybe that is the other issue, apart from surround sound, where I part company with Jan. And score a bit more to right on the Political Compass. Though not so much, from Jan's recent posts. I think Jan and Mrs A would see eye-to-eye on most things. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:48 am: |
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Kegger - The "sound" of capacitors. Why not ask me what I think of Eastern Religions?
I remember reading the article In "Audio" magazine back in the '70's that first brought capacitors to the point of being discussed rather than just dismissed as one of those hairbrained audiophile myths. Here it is:
http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm
It was well over my head in a lot of its technical aspects but it made for great reading. It explained why some of the ideas I was hearing might have some validity. And since "Audio" was one of the "respected" magazines of its time (and the one of the bunch that actually offered articles that informed the reader) once the "sound" of capacitors was given the official blessing it became OK to think there might be a reason why components sounded the way they did.
We have, on this forum, discussed the sound of Mcintosh components. One of the reasons Mac was not considered serious high end equipment through most of the 80's and early 90's was their insistence on doing things their way. Mac was slow to change to poly caps and metal film resitors and the MA6100 and MA6200 that are the "new old stock" amps of the forum have push clip type speaker connectors, not something that needs a torque wrench to tighten. But you see the glowing responses to the sound of those amps. Mac wasn't using any fancy caps at that time and yet the product they turned out still holds up to some of the best of today's gear in terms of musical enjoyment. In the most recent issue of "Stereophile" they have their "Recommended Components" and in the Tube Amp section the reissue of the McIntosh MC275 is graded a Class A amplifier. This amp has new parts with new style caps and resistors and so forth but the amp was designed in the early 1960's. Not to wave the flag of McIntosh (I would think some of you are getting tired of hearing about it) but, to me, this shows there must be more to the sound of an amplifier than any one part. Great design is still the key to great sound. Your Dynaco ST70's show that also.
When I acquired my MC240's in the mid 80's they were dead stock units, they both had factory tubes still in them. After listening to them for several months I decided to upgrade the parts and started with caps and internal wiring. I got the best parts I could find at the time and made the changes. I was working with three guys that had been around Mac for twenty years at that point and they had all owned Mac tubes. Two were skeptical but interested and the third was a "it all sounds the same" believer. When I finished the first round of parts changes I had removed the old orange drops and paper in oil caps. I hooked everything up in the front of the store and let the amps play for the day. All three were amazed at what they heard as an improvement in the sound. Was it just going from parts that were twenty years old to new parts, maybe, but the Macs had checked out fine before I did anything to them; no parts had shown they had drifted enough to measure. So I became convinced that the passive parts of a piece of equipment will obviously affect the sound if you listen with an open mind.
As to the sound of "old" style parts it goes back to our discussions of "old school" tube sound and "new school" sound and my stated believes about accuracy in home audio. I have had many tubed pieces of gear in my system that utilized P.I.O. caps and so forth and the ones that were good were really good. As I stated in the recent posts on tube gear elsewhere in the forum, the sound of a Marantz 7C pre amp is so intoxicating you will find it hard to turn it off for the night even if you have lived with it for several years. Vocals just won't let you not smile and go along for the ride. When I hooked up the ST70's I listened to the Elvis piece I sent you and it just moved in a way no Solid State gear I have in the house right now could even begin to manage. Those amps were basically stock with forty year old parts.
Are those pieces of equipment accurate? Well, that's in the judgement of the listener. I've said I wouldn't want a pair of Klipschorns on a bet but I have to admit those speakers do things no acoustic suspension speaker can come close to doing. They have too many flaws for my taste but they can run rings around most anything else in terms of dynamics both big and small. With a good tube amp they are a hard system to ignore.
So I think you can find what you want out there with any part if you know what you're listening for. And there is no way for anyone else to tell you what you are hearing is wrong.
Paper in Oil caps have become the newest "new old stock" items as, like todays tubes, the best of what is produced today is not as good as much of what was made a few decades ago. I'm not saying that because I think everything old is great but because, like tubes, when you make things in larger quantities your average quality is likely to go up. P.I.O. caps are a small scale production item today and they have, like tubes, much of the sound of the "old school" parts but lack that final bit of magic.
I can see where you could find the old style caps very appealing, particularly the way you have your amps running. You get to decide how your system sounds and if it makes you interested in the music then that should be enough to say this is better. I would guess the information you are getting on caps is good and I would only say you can get confused as to what you want just because it is different than what you have. Our conversations prove you are sensible about your system (buying twenty tube power amps and 150 tube pre amps in the past month not withstanding). Try a few things and see where it leads. You haven't even touched triodes much, let alone SET's or OTL's. Play around and have some fun. That is part of this hobby that so many forget. If you find the music more easily with one technology then I would say that you have made a lot of progress. Maybe you'll find that listening on the original speakers of the day is appealing also. There's a world of things to explore and you might as well be one of those who want to find out why things are what people claim.
I can't give much advice about try this cap or this resistor. That is like asking which wire should I use on my subwoofer. I once stated on this forum that knowing the sound of cables is like knowing God. Everyone has to search it out for themselves, but it is the search that should be fun and interesting.
I don't know if that comes close to what you were asking me to address. As I said, what you asked is a really big subject. And as we have discussed here, the differences are really small in the scheme of all things. Don't get lost. Follow the light, it is your friend, eh, Mr. Holmes?
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:56 am: |
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John - It's getting late here in Big D and I need some sleep but I can't recall any "ism" that isn't like the first issue of "Spiderman". They make a great read but it could never happen in the real world.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1545
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:15 am: |
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jan your rendition of caps and resistors is right up their
with my findings!
..........................
ghia 1-1 in both but 2nd place in the 1 that points overall wins.
so i feel pretty good about the 1 for points but
the other picking 11th 5 times in 12 rounds is
really hurting me, at qb excspecially. and that has 12 teams in it.
yah picking second to last 5 times really hurts! |
Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1546
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:23 am: |
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Caps/resistors and the sounds they can produce: “or reduce”
Well I don’t know if any remembers or maybe I just told Jan.
But when I got the first golden tube audio se-40 amp it sounded darn good but had
All this noise, crackles and pops and what not. That didn’t really bother me as my
Plan was to rebuild it with the kits from soniccraft because they are suppose to address
http://www.soniccraft.com/upgrades/se40.htm
All the known issues with these amps with upgraded parts being in value and quality.
After the upgrades about 75% of the amplifier is new and upgraded from stock.
Put all new tubes in, rebiased the system, put all back together then it was time to test.
First impressions were cool, alright no more noises, the clicks and pops where all gone.
The bass was tighter the highs were more extended but something was missing, really
It just didn’t sound like a tube amp anymore “many strive for that” after talking with
Jeff from soniccraft “great guy” that was the design of the kits. 1: upgrade all parts and
There tolerances to exceed their needed values “as apposed to under value parts from the factory”. 2: improve the overall sound of the amp as close as possible to flat and linear
Without any of the exaggerated tube characteristics “audiophile amp”. Well that wasn’t exactly what I was looking for. I wanted all the new parts changed for reliability and the extended bass end treble was great but I also wanted my tube sound.
So I start doing more research “some of my own trial and error, info from others and good old fashion reading” and come to the realization as what Jan had said about old and new tube sound. It’s mainly from passive parts in the preamps and amps. “Resistors and capacitors”.
Well the person I bought the amp from had a friend who had one that was 1 serial # away from the unit I got. So I figured ok this amp sounds great in the bass area “where tube amps generally lack” and I’ve already done the upgrades I’m not going to take them out. So I got the second amp then went ahead and purchased the first of the three kits from soniccraft to get all the resistors and caps that need to be replaced in the amp for reliability and decided to mod the rest of the amp myself to try and get the luscious tube sound I was craving but still retain the good stuff the upgrades had brought me from the first one. I changed three of the six power supply caps with the three larger ones that were removed from the first amp “the kit replaces all six with larger ones then the 3 larger originals” then replaced the 2 bypass caps with polypropylene versus ceramic then started messing with the negative bias, bypass, feedback and output sections with different types and quality of capacitors also older ones form some of the other tube gear I now have. So far I believe in replacing the outdated resistors with new quality ones and feel capacitors make a bigger change on sound.
My findings so far seem to be that the older equipment has the sound it has mainly because
Of the capacitors used. The same goes for newer equipment. In my opinion new or old equipment can be made to sound like the other with capacitor changes “to a degree”
So I am trying to build a hybrid of sorts, newer parts in the critical circuits and older tech in some of the signal path areas. So far what I’ve done and heard is incredible. The new amp that I’m tweaking runs the mid and highs while the first amp runs the bass in a biamped configuration plus a solid-state amp running subs from 60hz on down.
Next on the list is trying nos paper in oil capacitors “the ones used in many vintage gear”
If my theory is correct those are going to make the amp produce even more of the luscious midrange the older tube gear creates. But with the newer parts in the amp as well still retain most of the speed and some of the accuracy.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1547
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:31 am: |
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yes jan quality transformers are a must too and also affect the sound.
the ones in the se-40's are suppose to be excelent as
golden tube audio was an offshoot from a quality transformer company!
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1548
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:37 am: |
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jan.
"When I acquired my MC240's in the mid 80's they were dead stock units, they both had factory tubes still in them. After listening to them for several months I decided to upgrade the parts and started with caps and internal wiring. I got the best parts I could find at the time and made the changes. I was working with three guys that had been around Mac for twenty years at that point and they had all owned Mac tubes. Two were skeptical but interested and the third was a "it all sounds the same" believer. When I finished the first round of parts changes I had removed the old orange drops and paper in oil caps"
was that the extent of the mods and what do you think of my ramblings
on the cap and resistor post?
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Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2133
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:43 am: |
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Great stuff, Kegger. I am more and more convinced you would enjoy vinyl.... Just to reply to Jan a few posts back.
Scepticism. Skepticism. Call it what you like, it seems to come naturally to Old Dogs. |
SACDude Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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In my opinion Adam Smith was a wuss because he was all about sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups. Though from what I read, the good Mr. John A. may try to bash my concept into tiny pieces?
On a more solid bit of discussion, please. I have a Nad receiver, which seems a fine piece of equipment - but now have suddenly found myself the recipient of a rather new Onkyo 701 receiver - due to a friend dying and leaving it to me. A sad windfall for me, certainly.
My question, though, is: which of the two units do you more electronics-oriented folk consider the better of the two? I rather like the mid-range of the Nad - but the Onkyo has more power per channel, and is newer. I have NO need for two amplifiers, so which one should I donate to the local Stereo club for donation to a worthy but poorer soul?
I have heard that the Onkyo units have a "brighter" sound - though for the life of me I don't understand how one amplifier can sound brighter or deeper or warmer than another.
Any ideas welcome, with thanks. |
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 11:06 am: |
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"Follow the pale blue lights, they are friends".
Elementary my dear Vigne, once one becomes aware. |
Silver Member Username: Rick_b
New York
USA
Post Number: 489
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 11:59 am: |
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John,
Thank you. I prefer wary or caution to skepticism.
Cheers!
Thank you Mr. Vigne and Mr. Holmes! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2134
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:40 pm: |
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SACDude,
I would not dream of attempting bash your concept to pieces. I've only ever been able to dip into the Wealth of Nations, looking for the juicy bits. It is not easy going. I seem to recall it has hundreds of pages on the price of wheat in various parts of Scotland etc.
Sorry to hear about the the sad windfall. If you have them both you can try them and see which you prefer. If you have them side by side, then you have no need of "sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups". I have an NAD T760 myself and it is pretty good. Onkyo tend to be more hi-tech and they are venturing into networking, servers, and WiFi, on receivers, I recall. I am not sure what "brighter" sound is, either - do you hear anything you would describe in that way? See Definitions and descriptions. You could also try the "Audio>Receivers" topic which is very lively and has people with views on these and other brands. Personally, I would keep them both, if they have equal capabilities, features etc. You never know when you might have to ask "Is it the receiver?"
Holmes,
I am beginning to think I shall have to catch up on Conan Doyle in order to follow the literary allusions here. I am waiting for the DVD.
Rick,
Give me skepticism every time.
Cheers! |
`J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:43 pm: |
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DUDE - "In my opinion Adam Smith was a wuss because he was all about sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups."
By that logic "Mein Kamp" would make Hitler a wuss. Arguable, but I don't think even John could defend that point of view.
There is an alomost reverence for NAD among audiophiles. It is well deserved in someways being they introduced a concept of designing and building audio in a fashion that was lacking in American audio back in the 70's with few exceptions (the most notable being the Advent reciever of the mid 70's - 15 watts with one of the best phono sections [designed by Thomlison Hollman] ever put into a reciever and pre out main in jacks for upgrades when Advent made their power amp which they unfortunately never got around to doing). But on the other hand NAD was one of the first audio companies to be based in one country while their product was entirely manufactured in another for purely financial reasons. Which should we celebrate?
One thing that has kept NAD in the mainstream of audio has been a consistent "sound" that has changed little over the past three decades. Few companies can claim that honor and most that do are well beyond the price of the NAD line. Onkyo has been a company that has gone from a good recommendation in their early days in the US to a company that has seen the mass market dollars and has aspired to what they admire most. I would say keep the NAD, particularly if you find something you like about the sound of the unit. Donate the Onkyo, particularly if the only reason to keep it is more power (which old dogs will tell you is inconsequential all things equal) and that it is "new and improved".
It is a sad but true consequence that the term brighter has come to mean, in the world of Big Box Store recievers, they have made the unit more cheaply. When the most important aspect of your design is to have the "best" specs and the most gee-gaws on the front panel (blue lights can decieve, The Nun knows this all too well) you loose sight of what makes an audio unit sound good. Suddenly smaller transformers, less discrete circuitry, less expensive output transistors (that was hard to type, it makes my hands shake) and so on fall to the wayside in favor of the N.A.I.'d circuit to which you can apply an appellation and particularly one which can have an acronym, such as Turbo User Ramming Device or T.U.R.D. Onkyo hs long ago abandoned the specialty retailers who used to hook it up to speakers and let clients listen and decide and has gone to Big Box displays where the "salesperson" shouts the features at you so you can hear them over the roar of fifty other systems playing and the cash registers (how old I feel using that term [my first real job was in a neighborhood market that had a register with a hand crank on the side and made a wonderful sound as the drawer slid open to reveal the wooden dividers for change and bills; we didn't need no stinkin' barcodes] raking in the C.A.S.H. [Customer Assisted Stupidity Helper]). 'Tis a pity.
Kegger - I think you've caught the general drift of what has been happening in audio for the past few generations of thinking. That great bastion of high end anointment, "The Absolute Sound", has always held that the only good audio gear is that which allows the listener to essentially recreate the listening experience in their own room. That's all well and good but, (once more) as I have said, no one really agrees on how they hear the original. If we could then we would all own the same system. Period. We can't even tell each other what we hear and make certain we have communicated the experience to the listener with accuracy.
An aside - Our Dallas Symphony opened its season last week with a Beethoven piece. Doesn't matter which one. The newspaper critic made a complaint that the conductor hurried the performance of the first movement and therefore changed the composer's intent which subsequently distracted the critic throughout the rest of the piece, this despite, by his own admission, the added drama it lent to the reading. Letter's to the editor followed with justifications from other listener's for the choices made by someone they are not. But the writers obviously saw the effect upon the piece differently than the critic. So we can't even agree on how fast a piece of music should be played. Letters lambasting our local critics are regular features in the Dallas paper and usually begin, "I don't know what concert so and so was at but ...". And this certainly is not restricted to Dallas.
So what is accuracy if not something that makes the listener connect more readily with the music and holds that attention. As they say, "Always leave them wanting more." The audio designers of the past few decades have struggled with the idea of how to bridge that gap between what sounds good, what will sell, what will get good reviews and (to a sometimes totally ignored concept of) how much will it cost to produce. Many an audio reviewer has lamented the disposal of an older piece of audio, such as an ST70, Mac or Marantz tubes, original Quads and so on only to obtain something they felt was more accurate. I gave up on most of that quite a while back when I found what I liked and it satisfied my needs. (I'm a real old dog in that respect as I keep my 20 year old car and, if I had my way, would be driving my '72 Chevelle, not out of sentimentality or a belief they are always better, but because I hate to get rid of something that has brought me satisfaction.) So I think you should make your system do what you wnat it to do. I'll make one suggestion to you. I've seen many who get into the modification game and they loose sight of that reality of real music. I think before you go into much more you should find a piece of music being played in a live venue where there is no amplification. Go listen to somebody play for the sake of making music. As John said the joy of playing for someone else to enjoy is something that often is lost in the world of audio. To hear the sound of an instrument that is not there to impress you with its soundstaging or imaging or tightness of bass is something I think everyone needs on a more regular basis. I know you listen to rock mostly but find some type of music that you can listen to where the sound isn't lost in a crowd of people or mashed into a stack of speakers that fit on the stage. Just go listen to something then come back and go at your mods with a fresh perspective. It makes things sound different at home more that you might think.
Resistors are one of the lower level items that make an audible difference in your electronics. Capacitors are high on the list. When I first started upgrading (?) my amps I did the caps and wiring with silver solder. I listened like that for several months and then proceeded to change the resistors and other passive parts. The amps have 90% different parts now but I didn't change the circuit other than to simplify some switching that wasn't in the signal path. But Mac held all the original critical resistors to 1% and the caps to 5% which, in 1964, was quite an achievement for audio equipment. So the sound of the amps didn't change so much as just open up and get better at the sutlety of the music. There was a much more profound change to be made with the tubes themself. But there I can accomplish that change in a matter of minutes where anything I do to the caps is going to take a while longer.
Bottom line for me is choose good design and good construction (not to knock the G.T.A.'s because it is a problem that has existed in audio for quite a while but why put in underated caps and resistors? The cost of a 1/2 watt resistor vs. a 1/4 watt resistor is mere pennies when you buy in quantity.) then look at the parts quality as an indication of how serious the company is about their product. You can throw high priced parts at something (an 80's Jaguar?) but not make a better product. In tubes I consider the transformers to be the most important part that I am unlikely to change (unless I'm talking vintage where a transformer may need a change due to age), then the caps, particularly in the power supply and signal path, and then the resistors, wire and other passive parts. But if you listen to what the designer had in mind with the original design (many people consider the ST70 to be just right as is from the factory) you can hear the music through any really great piece of audio no matter what parts are in there.
There I would turn this back to Rick and Ghia to say what they think about their Macs with less than "perfect" parts. ("Less than 'perfect' parts", sounds like a body image problem or something doesn't it?)
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SACDude Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:23 pm: |
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Trust a "union guy" to help me decide on the subtle variants involved in choice of a receiver. This man - a member of our area stereo-lovers' club - also works as a high-end (and highly-paid) sound engineer for McCormick Place - the giant convention hall in Chicago - and at several area concert halls. He has forgotten more about electronics than I shall ever learn.
At any rate - following an early lunch, the chap came over and literally tore apart my setup. Then, he proceeded to string about five miles of wire, with switches and lights and I don't know what else. I began to have fear that he would blow a fuse - no, excuse me, breaker.
We then alternated receivers - don't ask how - to compare them. I will have to say that, with the FM, there was little difference. But, with the aging Philips SACD player, the differences became clearer.
My new and beloved B & W 705 speakers seem to "do" much better with power. They sound rather lifeless at very low listening levels.
With that in mind, the power produced by the Onkyo seemed to make them come alive more, though I'm hopeless in trying to define "coming alive." After nearly an hour of listening, both my friend and I decided that the Onkyo was a better amplifier, given my speakers and room size and setup.
Therefore, I let him take the NAD (which must weigh 50 pounds!!!) to the club, for distribution to some needy music-lover.
The unit was labeled T742, and I understand that it only had 60 or so watts per channel, versus the 100 on the Onkyo.
Does the Onkyo sound "brighter?" Well, I couldn't speak to that, but the high frequencies tend to come through better on the B & Ws, for whatever reason. And the Onkyo tuner seems much more sensitive than the NAD.
If you are wondering, the stereo is in a room roughly 16 by 20 feet - heavily carpeted and with several large Oriental rugs hanging on plaster walls. I live in an old building - built like a fortress - which allows me to boost the volume at times without fear of bringing out homicidal tendencies in the neighboring units.
My friend says that my "inter-connects" need an upgrade, but my 10-gauge speaker wire is fine. Well! That's good to know!
Oh, yes - the other stereo gear that I got already went to the club - a Sony CD/DVD player and some Polk speakers - not sure of the model.
Now, I look forward to a new CD/DVD player around the Holidays. I hope to spend less than $600 for it, and eagerly await the new models as they come out this autumn.
PS - Hitler actually was a wuss in his young, paper-hanging days. It was not until he became politically active and had "boosters" that his egomaniacal traits emerged in public. I suppose you could compare Smith's tomes with "Mein Kampf" though the paralels escape me - with respect, Mr. Vigne.
And oh,yes - I have a rather intelligent friend who purchased a stereo unit ONLY because it had fine, blue lights on the display. Frankly, I don't know what brand - but it is BLUE! |
Gold Member Username: John_a
Post Number: 2138
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:18 pm: |
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Just to say that, until 1989, half the people in the world lived under political systems that explicitly acknowledged their debt to Mr Marx and Mr Lenin, with sky-high theory and little fact-based idea back-ups.
Mr H, in contrast, was a loon who stood at the apex of a triangle; he held power because all beneath disclaimed personal responsibility or were shot. The former were the wusses, surely. And who know if AH wasn't great at interior decor. Gandhi understood where power really resides, in individuals having the courage to say "no".
Turbo User Ramming Device. Priceless. As is everything written by JV.
Finest back-handed compliment I've ever received: "but I don't think even John could defend that point of view". Thanks, Jan! |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 05:19 pm: |
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I agree, in those early days after W.W.I, Hitler was a wussy and that is giving him the benefit of a consonant. My argument went to the extension of action vs. ideals expressed in a book. Both thought their ideals were for the betterment of the people and both fell short of reality by a high slider out of the strike zone. Hitler's just happened to be up under the chin of the Jewish people. Smith's reliance upon "natural" laws and motivations was not the same as Hitler's who agitated for demonstrable action. Please correct me if I am wrong about my ideas. I know little about Smith (Catholic schools did not favor his brand of economics I suppose) and have never fully understood Germany in the 20's and 30's other that antiSemitism was rampant not only in Germany but in most other parts of the world and particularly represented in the U.S. by men like Henry Ford. (I am a Theatre major who knows Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill
(http://www.midwinter.com/beyond/lyrics/allsonglyricssortedbytitle.html
and
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/doughoekstra/soldierswife.htm
and their group's distaste for Hitler.) But I see neither Smith nor Hitler having any more than "sky high" ideals (if you wish to give that much to Hitler) and both tried to convince with "little fact-based idea back-ups." I see one as a wuss and the other as a bully. One sought to make people think while the other wanted action however misled.
By the way, what did you teach and where?
And I sold many expensive systems based on the fact you could not see it at all.
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 05:24 pm: |
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(http://www.midwinter.com/beyond/lyrics/allsonglyricssortedbytitle.html
Please check "Cannon Song". I thought that link might make it through but obviously did not.
No problem, John. Always happy to support you.
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| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:59 pm: |
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My Dear JohnA.,
Do not seek the answer from the author who's words brought me to life. You will find the meaning in my post under DEFINITIONS dated 9/15. |
J. Vigne Unregistered guest |
| Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 08:21 pm: |
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"And who know if AH wasn't great at interior decor."
It did not go unnoticed.
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Gold Member Username: Kegger
MICHIGAN
Post Number: 1549
Registered: Dec-03
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| Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:35 am: |
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yes jan I am quite aware of going to far and trying to hard
to get something perfect. "gotcha" thanks.
Like I said right now i'm very very happy with the performance
of these amplifiers. but there are a couple more caps i want to try.
"if i don't try them for myself i'll never know what they sound like"
I chose these amps for the glowing reviews they get from owners.
if you do a search for these amps people just love the sound
and there are many testimoniels to the upgrades at soniccraft making
them sound better plus extending there life. also
the | |
