| Author |
Thread: SVS 25-31 PCi, HSU Research VTF-3, and Axiom Audio EP-350 Subwoofers |
    
Brian Mitchell |
| Posted on Thursday, November 07, 2002 - 01:40 am: |
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Three Subwoofers Face Off: SVS 25-31PCi, HSU Research VTF-3, and Axiom Audio EP-350 Subwoofers
Each of these subwoofers proves you don't have to spend a lot to get low frequency bass effects for movies and music. But does spending more guarantee better performance?
First impressions: These are heavy
Let's start out with my first impressions. Both the Axiom and HSU are familiar looking cubed shaped sub boxes, while the SVS uses a tall cylinder design with a downward firing subwoofer. All three employ a 12-inch subwoofer driver, and have internal amplifiers. The Axiom is the lightest and weighs in at 39 lbs, the middleweight is the SVS at 65 lbs, and get out the forklift for the HSU -- it's 85 lbs!
Let's look at the manuals
The SVS comes with the most comprehensive and professional looking manual. It contains diagrams, setup advice and explains how to use a SPL meter (not supplied) to properly calibrate your unit. The HSU manual consisted of stapled together pages, had no diagrams, although it did offer setup tips with an accompanying CD of test tones and music. The Axiom manual had no setup tips, but it gave a definition of each feature in English and French.
+1 SVS, 0 HSU, 0 Axiom
Connections, knobs and switches
Each subwoofer has volume controls, variable crossovers, phase switches, line-level in, high-level in/out, and auto on power settings. The HSU and SVS both have external cross-over disable/enable switches, while the Axiom does not. Lastly the HSU is the only sub with a 20Hz/25Hz switch to change the tuning. Don't worry if you don't know what all that means. Each sub has all the connections you need for home theater or stereo use. As recommended by the manufacturer's, each sub was connected with one 75 Ohm RCA cable from the receiver's subwoofer-out jack to the subwoofer's line-in jack.
+1 SVS, +1 HSU, 0 Axiom
The Setup
Each sub was calibrated at 75db using the test tones on the AVIA Guide to Home Theater DVD setup disc. A BetterCables.com 8ft subwoofer cable was used. Subwoofer crossovers were disabled for Dolby Digital movies (allowing the receiver to manage low frequency settings), and enabled for stereo music (allowing the sub to control settings).
Music time
I threw everything from classical to jazz to hip-hop to rap at these subs. Each sub performed remarkably similar at the same listening levels, but I would give the advantage to the HSU on classical music because it seemed the most accurate. The SVS gets the nod for rap and hip-hop music as it produced tight loud bass that literally shook the room. The Axiom performed admirably, but was least impressive of the group.
+1 SVS, +1 HSU, 0 Axiom
Movie time
Using these subs for movies is really where they shine. The SVS not only shakes the room, it will rock your entire house. Explosion scenes and crashes will be felt as well as heard with the SVS, without a hint of distortion. The HSU will also shake-up a room, and produces quick clean bass, but it didn't seem as realistic for movies as the SVS. The Axiom again did not add any more realism for movies, but it wasn't that bad, just overmatched.
+2 SVS, +1 HSU, 0 Axiom
How low can they go?
Just for fun I played with some low test tones to see how each sub performed. The HSU easily won the battle, in playing the lowest audible frequencies below 20Hz, but it also caused the most room resonation. I can't fault HSU for that. The SVS was second in this test, and the Axiom was last. It should be noted that most sound below 25Hz was felt as vibrations more than it could be heard in these tests. Low frequency tests are more for manufacturer bragging rights and sales literature, then a true measure of subwoofer performance.
+1 SVS, +2 HSU, 0 Axiom
Is bigger better?
The SVS is the largest and tallest, and could easily be mistaken for a floor standing speaker. The HSU and Axiom subs are about the same sized cube boxes and can be easily hidden in a corner. If you have the space, I'd get the SVS. If you want a less obtrusive looking sub go with the pricier HSU. If that is too much money then get the Axiom. No matter what your decision you won't be disappointed with any of them.
Final Thoughts
If you haven't figured out already, the SVS emerges as the winner of this face-off. You'll also be surprised to learn it is the least expensive of the group! It just goes to show you that more expensive doesn't always mean better. At just $549, the SVS is the best bargain in bass.
(All can be bought online)
SVS 25-31 PCi - $549
HSU Research VTF-3 - $849
Axiom Audio EP-350 - $620
Remember I am just one man with one opinion. If you own any of these products, or have a comment or question feel free to add your thoughts below.
Brian Mitchell
Founder & CEO
eCoustics.com |
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Relevant Product Info
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Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 05:27 pm: |
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You should set the subs to 85db with the Avia Disk. If you were using Video Essentials, then you would set the sub to 75db (the bass calibration tones were recorded at different levels on each disk).
Otherwise, nice review, and it's great to see a "face-off" between these subs. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:11 pm: |
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How does a sub that produces distortion for movies get a +2 in the rating?
How is fake music ranked at the same level as accurately recorded music?
I guess it is one person's opinion, since the professional reviewer came with an opposite conclusion. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:20 pm: |
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I have done a comparison with the HSU VTF-3 and a SVS CS+ 20-39. IMHO the SVS outclassed the VTF-3 in every catergory. The VTF-3 has to much port noise. It's a fine sub for most music, but for HT I just don't like it.
I moved my VTF-3 upstairs in to my 2 channel music setup in my living room. My CS+ sub is in my main HT room and it wont be replaced but I might be adding another soon to keep it company  |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:24 pm: |
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Someone is smoking crack if they think they SVS subs have distortion for movies. The VTF-3 is the port noise king when playing DVD's. Unless of course you turn the gain down to next to nothing. It sounds like an old locomotive huffing! |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 07:54 pm: |
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Regardless of education or background, sound is subjective and an opinion is an opinion and nothing more. Anyone that knows how to properly calibrate their sound system in my opinion, holds as much weight as a "any" reviewer.
I have read many a "professional" review that I have disagreed with from music CD's to what car to buy. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 10:30 pm: |
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"Explosion scenes and crashes will be felt as well as heard with the SVS, without a hint of distortion"
Did you guys even read the review? He says "WITHOUT A HINT OF DISTORTION"
"Fake music"?
The music may suck to you but that type of music still uses sound waves and some people like it. |
Robb |
| Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 06:23 pm: |
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I'm in AZ, and after shipping, the VTF-3 costs a few more bucks than my 20-39pc+! That's just scary! |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 06:27 pm: |
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In case my previous post was at all ambiguous, that would be a *huge* thumbs up/advantage for SVS. |
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| Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 08:50 pm: |
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From the "FWIW Dept."
Seems there is interest here for a showing of a PC-Plus?? Say a 20-39PC-Plus, as suggested above?
We hate to impose on eCoustics.com, but maybe they'll give in to some arm twisting and let UPS show up again.
Stay tuned. The fact Brian doesn't seem to mind making waves in the otherwise staid subwoofer world of is reason enough I guess.
Ron Stimpson
Co-Founder
www.svsubwoofers.com |
SVSucks |
| Posted on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 10:25 pm: |
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You should have tested the Hsu TN-1220HO or the Tn1225HO against the SVS....After all SVS ripped off Hsu's design. I should have figured Stimpson would be littering this board with his propaganda |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 12:22 am: |
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SVSucks,
You don't know what the hell you are talking about. But I'm sure with your lame *ss name you weren't trying to be objective. I own a set of TN1220's and it doesn't compare to the SVS PC+ line. A friend of mine brought over his new PC+ 20-39 and he put my TN1220's to shame with it (I didn't tell him that though ). Now I am moving my 1220's into another room and ordering twin Ultra's as soon as I can convince my wife to let me spend the money. I want the Ultra's to one up my friend
The TN1220 is a fine sub but SVS "has" the better product in both quality of sound and build. You attacking SVS reminds me of how Coke and Mc Donalds
try to convince consumers their product is better than Pepsi and Burger King, because they were scared sh**less of them. Pepsi, Burger King and "SVS" have the "better" products.
DEAL WITH IT! |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 03:17 pm: |
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Stimpy should stay out of it....publicly, anyway. |
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| Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 11:50 pm: |
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"After all SVS ripped off Hsu's design."
Really? They are actually quite different if you understand either, at all. All box subs ripped off some other box sub early on perhaps? Go ahead and take both subs apart and I think you'll find that two cylinder subs could not be more different. 95% of all vented box subs share more in common than Hsu and SVS designs.
I don't understand the "propaganda" charge at all, but something tells me we're not meant to.
Any credible tester that wants to compare a passive Hsu system like the well-regarded TN lines to a system like our CS or CS-Plus would get samples without delay. Feel free to invite Hsu, we're happy to participate with any similar great brands.
"Stimpy should stay out of it....publicly, anyway."
Thanks for the advice, but we prefer to be as honest and open as possible. Most folks seem to appreciate this, though I can understand many just are not comfortable with an OEM mixing it up with "regular folks". We ARE regular folks, who happen to make subwoofers.
We only build the subs and supply them now and again to reviewers that seem to know what they are doing. That's about the extent of it. If that's "too public" then we're desined to disappoint some.
Thanks again to Brian for taking the time on this review, and those giving us food for thought in other areas. There's always the few that feel a need to be offensive and for that we're sorry this review stimulated any such responses.
Regards,
Ron |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 02:07 am: |
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SVSUCKS
Can we say subwoofer envy?
SVS is one of the best subwoofer manufacturers out there and I would say the best for the money.
Also they have without a doubt the best customer service compared to any other company I have dealt with before, BAR NONE!
SVS keep up the great work!
Oh BTW nice review |
SVS Owner |
| Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 09:54 am: |
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Up to this point the gang at SVS have been admirable in the way they have dealt with the competition...even recommending the VTF3 on a few occasions. Being objective and letting the numbers speak for themselves has been their motto. This evaluation by Brian Mitchel is purely subjective and is void of any empirical data...this is a review that belongs on the AVS Forum...not linked to the SVS Web site! I am not faulting Mr. Mitchel. He may be speaking from the heart. I believe that SVS rushed out a rather "Subjective/feel good review" to counter the latest review by Howard Ferstler. Disappointing. |
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| Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 05:44 pm: |
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SVS Owner,
The review was published, and we linked to it. It's certainly at least as well written and conducted as most we see. Howard actually wrote a review some time ago (still waiting to be published that will shock some VTF-3 owners I think) which largely supports Brian's findings. Naturally we don't quote from it yet. I think it'll appear in The Sensible Sound again. I'll check with them on Monday. It's WAY overdue. Not that we have much influence with them. If we did it would have been out BEFORE the VTF-3 review he did, published in another mag I can't recall.
HF's laudatory comments for the VTF-3 are well founded. It's a fine sub! If you want to objectively or subjectively compare one to our PCi line I think (if honestly done) you might well favor the PCi. Given the designs of the two subs I don't think it's that shocking really. In max extension mode the VTF-3 has less vent space, less enclosure space (could be wrong on that, don't have the notes here), and less amp power. Our driver is as good, and arguably better, it has a very sophisticated amp and a simple/effective vent that works very well (no variable tuning though). The VTF-3 has a bit of an edge if run in "max output" mode with both vents open, but probably loses its extension advantage to the 25-31PCi.
As well tell people, it's not rocket science (though puttting a product like this into cosumer hands affordable is hardly simple)... it's physics.
Given all the testing we do ourselves you would have to guess we know if a review is accurate based on objective performance (we have a reputation to keep ;^). Brian's findings are totally supportable by all the measurements possible with the most sophisticated gear we have. And it's not like this was a blowout. It was quite close, again as you would expect. The fact our PCi is $300 less is possibly irrelevant to some people.
Hopefully the mag HF submitted his PCi review to will get it going. The PC he used as a baseline for his reference was something like $200 more expensive, had a much less capable woofer than today (though hardly poor) and much less amp power. The PCi is a wholly different annimal and priced much lower.
PS for the time being, if someone is stuck on having a box sub vice a cylinder we STILL recommend VTF-3's frequently. It's got good components and delivered and supported by a great company. Full stop.
Very respectfully,
Ron Stimpson |
Don Smith |
| Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 06:23 pm: |
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As a SVS 20-39 PCi owner I can attest to the quality and quantity of its output. I got mine B-stock for $499 (what a great bargain!). SVS subs are a little more of a handful than typical subs in terms of placement, both for sound quality and appearances, but if you have a largish room you can't beat it. I actually have mine trimmed down about 40% because at full output it literally shakes the whole house.
DSmith |
Bob |
| Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 04:43 pm: |
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This whole review seems questionable. Giving equal weight to the manual and connections knobs as to performance? Give me a break. I don't see any mention of the Hsu being used in max output mode, which would be more suitable for movies. Also, we have no idea about setup as others have mentioned. What program material was used? Where were the subwoofers placed? What crossover point was used? What mode was the VTF-3 in? and so on
Hey Crankit, nice to see you peddling your BS here again. He is the third anonymous post here. I have seen him post this regarding the VTF-3 vs. the 20-39CS+:
"They are both excellent subs.
IMO one does not out do the other."
"I honestly cant make up my mind which sub I like better. Everytime I get a new DVD or CD I play it over and over on both subs trying to convince myself one is better than the other and I just cant. For movies like LOTR, JRIII and Titan AE, I would give the edge to my SVS, but for moives like Exit wounds, Desperado, Fast n Furious & Tomb Stone, I give the edge to Hsu. Music is the same way fast beat techno or kick drum, I prefer the VTF-3, classical, jazz and country, I prefer the SVS. This is by the slimest of margins too."
Also, Crankit is using a subsonic filter/equalizer with his sub. For that price, you could easily get a new TN1220HO w/ 500 watt amp which should have noticeably more max output at 20Hz, and would have high quality HP/LP and high quality crossover.
Basically, he doesn't seem to have any integrity, and his statements are questionable at best IMHO.
As for comparing VTF-3 vs CS/PCi, take a look at these comparison reviews:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/webdocs/vtf3reviews.html
http://www.avsforum.com/...=141919
http://www.avsforum.com/...=135098&highlight=Barey
And trust me, there are others who have performed similar comparisons between the VTF-3 and PCi series and have reported similar results.
I actually know of someone who compared his VTF-3 side by side with a (25-31) PC+, and said the VTF-3 more than held it's own and was actually cleaner with less port noise. Output from both was adequate.
Funny to see Stimpson peddling his product on the public forums again. This guy has no shame. At least Hsu pays for his advertising. Let me address some of his BS comments:
[quote]In max extension mode the VTF-3 has less vent space, less enclosure space (could be wrong on that, don't have the notes here), and less amp power.[/quote]
You are comparing two ENTIRELY different designs based on specs. That doesn't work. A tiny VTF-2 with 10 inch driver and 150 watt amp had more clean output in max output mode < 10% distortion avg. 25-63Hz than a big 20-39 with 300 watt amp and 12 inch driver. You are comparing specs for two different enclosures with two different amps and two different drivers. That doesn't work, unless you are trying to promote your product through any means possible of course.
[quote]Our driver is as good, and arguably better[/quote]
More marketing BS. How can you define "better"? You couldn't be biased, no way!
[quote]it has a very sophisticated amp[/quote]
You can find BASH amps on $200 Klipsch computer speakers. But again, you couldn't be more biased.
[quote]The VTF-3 has a bit of an edge if run in "max output" mode with both vents open, but probably loses its extension advantage to the 25-31PCi.[/quote]
Have you actually measured the FR of a VTF-3 in max output mode? Until you do that, it is presumptuous to make such a comment.
As for the guy comparing 1220's to PC+, that seems like a highly dubious answer, since a single old TN1220HO w/ old 250 watt amp was actually tested by Ferstler and said to be nearly the equal of a 18 inch Velodyne.
Two TN1220HO's w/ their 500 watt amp can be had for $1500, and would probably compare more than favorably to anything that is mentioined in this thread. Also, the amp has some nice features for 2-channel integration.
Also, Hsu has already upgraded his driver and amp in the VTF-3, so it will play will less strain at extremely loud levels now. But you won't see him hyping these changes. |
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| Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:19 pm: |
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Bob,
Your poorly informed vitriol is already legend on the INTERNET. Might you mention you don't own a subwoofer, never owned a subwoofer, and don't even know how to use a SPL meter? That is you have neither bought one, set one up, or ever had to calibrate one? That you essentially parrot the experiences of others and this is the sole basis for your entire “experience” with bass reproduction??
The idea you still presume to dispense advice about subwoofers is somewhat sad.
We're over you Bob. You have become a laughing stock on ever discussion forum you visit. I'm quite certain you have served to increase SVS sales actually, and the idea that you are even semi-effective as a Hsu spokesman (which you clearly fancy yourself as, consciously or not) is likewise pitiable.
Your continued vicarious life as a subwoofer expert simply serves to demonstrate an obsession about SVS for which there is apparently no end. Dr. Hsu, for whom we have immense respect, is probably ashamed to have you as a fan (albeit one that has never actually heard a Hsu subwoofer).
Apologies to everyone else for having to witness yet another of Bob's tirades (he has many other log on names and pseudonyms).
Ron Stimpson |
Bob |
| Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:46 pm: |
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Stimpson, you replied to me that fast? Unbelievable.
You seem interested in a BS character debate instead of talking about something of substance.
You really don't know what I have listened to or how i have set up, so don't use that as a cop out.
I can see from your vague response that my comments are undeniably true. |
Bassaholic |
| Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 03:07 am: |
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I have the Hsu TN1220 and when I brought it over to my friend's place, who has a 16-46 PC+. From our comparison, his sub got smoked. There was the horrid sounding bottoming out of his woofer. And when I disconnected his BASH amp and hooked up my Crown Macro Reference from my 2ch setup, that sub is in embarassment territory. That sub pharted, bottomed out with a sound in which other people thought the magnet got knocked loose, have its woofer jiggle like some fat guy doing the polynesian dance. My friend here wouldn't admit that his SVS has shamed him, saying those pharts, jiggles, thunks are how it should sound. That's what you get when you these guy's previous system is the Bose AccousticMass. He can't even tell that the SVS is producing a one note bass, all he wants to do is feel the bass, and any dirtbag sounding pro sub would let you do that. The TN1220 is my secondary system, after the Infinity IRS V, so I know what real bass should sound like. |
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| Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 02:53 pm: |
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Bassaholic,
Could you have your friend contact us (your address is anonymous unfortunately). If a PC-Plus sounded as you described then clearly something is seriously wrong with it. Through extensive objective testing we know it to have significantly greater undistorted bass capability than the excellent TN1220.
There isn't any magic about this. Our "Plus" woofer is much higher capacity than the standard Hsu woofer, there is much more enclosure space in the Plus, there is significantly more vent space too (and depending on the amp, potentially more power since the Plus amp is very conservatively rated at 525 watts). We know the TN1220 very well, it's an excellent sub but it isn't going to "smoke" the PC-Plus unless there is something just plain broken on the SVS (which is always possible of course, UPS can be brutal on shipping subwoofers. A damaged woofer could be at fault here).
If your post is genuine then please let him know to contact me immediately and we'll set about a replacement immediately. You can even just send me the name and we'll look it up. Despite what he said to you, that is NOT normal. Not even close to what we know should be the case.
I don't doubt for a minute with your fine gear you know what good bass sounds like, but you certainly did not hear a properly functioning PC-Plus. Thanks for any assistance in getting your friend in touch with us.
Ron
rons@svsubwoofers.com |
shilo maggi |
| Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 04:23 pm: |
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Let's not feed the troll guys..
Ron, your products reputation more than preceeds it, and while I do not yet own one, I have had the chance to experience it, and will be placing my own order shortly. |
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| Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 05:25 pm: |
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Hi all, I'd like to thank Brian for allowing SVS in his subwoofer comparison and for taking the time to give his thoughts on our model.
There's some obvious untruths in this thread from *anonymous* posters hiding behind there computer terminal(is there anything more cowardly in the entire internet world?)...it would be cool if Brian had the time to run an ISP check...I think we might find out the *several* SVS trollers are all the same sad individual who has been banned from multiple forums for exactly this type of slanderous ranting.
I will address several of the issues introduced, the others aren't worth my time.
>>>After all SVS ripped off Hsu's design.<<<
For anyone to suggest this, they would also have to agree that ANY "box" design manufacturered in the last few decades is simply a "rip off" of the original designs done by companies like AR in the 50/60s. Since this is sheer(and obvious) folly, then it is either agreed that this statement was in error...or you have chosen the path of folly.The choice is yours(the original(anonymous)poster).
To the poster "disappointed" in this review because it is fairly brief and subjective. Well, SVS is often asked for more subjective reviews because objective data dominates the reviews on our website now. This is no accident btw. When we have such positive objective data gathered under controlled conditions from guys like John Johnson,Tom Nousaine,Howard Ferstler,Brian Weatherhead...I guess the only thing we haven't covered in depth is subjective reviews.(although the John Kotches,David Bott,Howard Ferstler and John Johnson reviews included a lot of subjective text too.) This is something we were asked for so we are now trying to deliver some reviews that lean towards the subjective side of things a bit. Although it may seem this review was *rushed*, Brian has actually been asking for a review subwoofer from SVS for quite a while now...starting about 4-6 months ago I believe.
Bassoholic,
If your post is indeed genuine, please inform SVS of your *friends* situation in more detail. Since he is obviously unhappy with the SVS, we'll refund him 110% of his purchase price and cover all associated shipping charges too. You might think with SVS have thousands of subwoofers in the field we won't be very concerned with one unhappy customer. But nothing is farther from the truth. BTW, running multiple kilowatts into a subwoofer designed with a built in 525w amp is a major *newbie* mistake...sure to cause distress(to the unit. I would be very surprised if the subwoofer wasn't damaged by this incident---all the more reason we should discuss the situation with your *friend* to insure the unit is at least still working properly.
BTW, how did you connect the Crown amp to the SVS---are you saying you bypassed the built in amp on the enclosure? If so, how...exactly?
Tom V.
SVS |
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| Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 03:23 pm: |
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OK, I'll be the sole person to reply about the Axiom. Axiom is a Canadian speaker manufacturer which sells and I would say gets most of its income from internet sales to the U.S. I'm in Canada and while I'd absolutely love to have a SVS or HSU sub someday, with the current exchange rate and shipping/duty costs, I'll have to wait. So I went to a local store and found a slightly scratched demo Axiom sub...the EP-175 (one below the 350). I got this sub for $250 Canadian (think $160 US). While this sub is no SVS....it is a capable little sub for the money. The aluminum woofer seems to work well and quickly which makes it very musical. I think the amp is a little weak though and it tails off quickly below 25Hz. Based on the local dealers prices and looking at the online store pricing I think that they are overpriced for internet sale. Not everyting available directly on the net is a good deal. I'm happy but I don't think I would be if I bought my sub on the Axiom website at $500 US. But hey...if anyone out there wants to trade a $500 Axiom speaker for a $500 SVS speaker...I'm game!
As for SVS, I may not be an expert on Subs but the way these guys run their business is something you don't have to be an expert to appreciate! Based on all the messages they post, the personal emails they send, the product development, the customer support, plus the regular hassles of running a private business...I wonder how they have time to sleep/eat/breathe or go to divorce court since they sure can't be spending any time with their wives!
I also find it strange that some people out there spend so much time being critical of the SVS guys. They obviously love what they do and are very dedicated. We should all be so lucky as to work and make money at something we love and be able to share it with others. The real indication of value and quality is if people buy the product...like it and recommend it to others. I think there's no denying SVS's success. |
Michael Lutz |
| Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 04:33 pm: |
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does anyone hear crickets? i'd hate to be a "friend" of Bassoholic; when he has the opportunity to help his "FRIEND" out he's nowhere to be found.
Mike |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:46 pm: |
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Hey myles, how you know the sub is no SVS? When you haven't heard SVS?
Are you basing your opinions on hype?
I say this to you and I say this again. Yes i'm guilty of that myself actually. YOu must listen to a sub just like you'd have to listen to regular sets of speakers before you buy in order to choose the one you like.
I'd say give the subs from your local dealer thorough listen. Then try SVS and/or Hsu a try because these two you gotta ship the darn things back. Subs aren't exactly light weights either. |
Bob |
| Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 04:12 pm: |
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Here are a couple of professional reviews (The Audiophile Voice, and Stereophile Guide to Home Theater) on the VTF-3:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/webdocs/vtf3reviews.html
Note the strong frequency response of the VTF-3 down to 20Hz (and below?) in max output mode, and the additional 2 or 3db's of headroom using the max output mode. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 02:00 pm: |
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Yeah but still a bit on pricy side. I think i'll wait til they lower the price a bit. That maybe a while but I can survive on Rava heck for 399 i couldn't ask much more from a cheap sub. And, it sure as hell ain't no black water heater sitting in my living room. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
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I am very uncomfortable with company executives posting on public message boards as a matter of daily business. I think AVS forums really "legitimized" that practice and it is not good for anyone. SVS should have its own board on its own site for this, like Outlaw does. While Outlaw did post a few times on AVS, they usually do their communication on their own boards. This constant monitoring by SVS, av123 folks etc. is not a good thing, it is a hype machine. Again, AVS forum is the center of internet HT hype world. Beware all. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 12:56 am: |
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bob,
seek help fast!
Your obsession with slandering SVS is sad |
wje |
| Posted on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 05:30 pm: |
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Quote:
Could you have your friend contact us (your address is anonymous unfortunately). If a PC-Plus sounded as you described then clearly something is seriously wrong with it.
End Quote
And I guess SVS is still waiting on a call regarding this subwoofer, correct? It seems like there was no such thing as a pharting on behalf of the SVS sub, othewise Tom and Ron would have had a chance to work though this issue with the owner of the sub.
At this point, Bob and Bassaholic are about the only two people who have written negative comments about the SVS subs. Everyone else loves these things. I wonder which other sub manufacturer Bob and Bassaholic work for? Hmmmm...... |
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| Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 09:00 pm: |
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E-Coustics Members,
No, no one has contacted us. Not "Bassaholic", not a single PC-Plus customer that expressed any sort of distress from his sub, much less any one relating a comparison/review like the one described above. I guess no one here is suprised?
I think it's safe to say it's another sad example of anonomyous slander from the safety of a keyboard hooked to the internet.
As stated earlier, we can only express our sincere regrets to you all that a small, self-financed American company can arrouse such ire. You would think there is enough grief, ignorance and bravado in the world already?? It seems not.
Even more baffling, we now suspect one instance of a POSITIVE review that's equally ficticious on Home Theater Forum. Suffice it to say we'll ask the appropriate authorities to pull any such instances of this. Credibility in one's word, (whether it be positive or a critique) is vitally important to us. The poorly written negative reviews are, I think, pretty transparently bogus, as the one above is to most here.
I do take note of "Anonymous" above concerned about "daily" monitoring of forums like this one. Your point (must it be "Anonymous"??) is well taken (heck, even if it WAS from "Bob"). The truth is, we hardly have time to "monitor" sites, much less participate in as many good forums as we'd prefer. There just isn't time. Please remember that more than 98% of the replies we get regarding our participation on the web generally commends the fact we're so accessible to customers and critics alike. Frankly, it's our understanding of what folks (you included) like and don't like that makes SVS's so good. Such understanding simply wouldn't be possible without places like this.
Still, while we do appreciate that some people are not comfortable with an OEM being visible participants on the web, we'll probably not constrain ourselves to hiding behind a forum under our control. We feel most folks do actually appreciate an OEM being just an e-mail or web post away.
Call it the classic syndrom of... "you can please some of the people ALL of the time, but you can NEVER please all of the people".
Best regards to all in 2003.
Ron |
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| Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 03:19 pm: |
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Ron,
Personally I think it is not only laudable but also very gratifying to find a director of any company willing to spend his very valuable time browsing a public forum.
It shows a willingness to be involved, hands on with customers concerns as well as praise. In my experience this is not the norm, indeed many customer services cannot even be bothered to respond to queries let alone complaints wether they be submitted by telephone or e-mail.
My only hope now is that SVS will somehow find a carrier willing to ship to the UK for something like a realistic price. 30% of the cost of a sub is too high, still I can dream!
Gordon. |
Danny G |
| Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 03:42 pm: |
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Seems to be a real dog fight whenever SVS/HSU is brought up in the same conversation on any forum.
I see another on HTF with Eddie ? doing a lone handed defense of HSU and getting pounded. Looking through many of these forums I am really troubled by the total lack of DR HSU coming into any forum or newsgroup to stick up for his HSU subwoofers.
I have no vested interest in either SVS or HSU but its like HSU have a policy not get involved at all with these quite public face offs and questions from consumers about which subwoofer to buy. Mention SVS and HSU and you get flooded with posts like they have been waiting for just one mention of the comparision. Its like an avalanche of posters come out of the woodwork. Rocket speakers are another a little like this.
With out overacting it is very obvious that several of the SVS people must consistantly monitor any mention of SVS on the biggest internet a/v hangouts. I certainly get around the net alot, and I have to admit I see Ron/Tom posts everywhere in large numbers. It must take them lots of hours to be posting in as many places as I see them posting, because I know that I spend hours just reading and finding them.
I certainly like to see pro's answering tech questions on A/V forums about gear and set-up.
But I too am very uncomfortable with company executives posting on public message boards as a pre-requisite to creating and conducting daily business. I also do not think it is very good for company executives of opposing companies to be looking for any excuse to be posting in a topic not involving any of the companies products. Its a big whine of mine to see any opposing manufacturer enter like this.
This is often done under the pretext of tech advice, but you soon notice it leads into product talk and if not it is still a chance to get the opposing company signature or web site into the discussion.
I just think it can go way too far like the HTF has gone, where its beyond a logo promotion at the top of the page. I hope company executives can see that this could backfire in the long run.
Good products are good products, so the loyalty comes el-natural not rammed down ones throat. Forums need to control posting by manufacturers in my view or else forums are going to go to the dogs. |
Anonymous |
| Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 08:30 pm: |
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Funny thing Danny for someone that has no vested interest in either HSU or SVS you are only pointing the finger at SVS followers and their CEO's here.
Then you go on to take a shot at HTF when in fact it is avsforum that is totally out of hand with the HSU vs SVS topics, and it is mainly because of one member there, bob23.
If David Bott would grow some balls and just ban his sorry a**, like every other forum has done multiple times, the problem would not exist.
As far as the HTF thread, Eddie is the one on the defensive/attack and anyone that reads that thread can clearly see that. Another funny thing is this thread has went untouched for nearly a month now and yet you, a person with no hidden agenda or vested interest in either company, is dredging it back up to the top of the list.
Do wonders never cease? |
Danny G |
| Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 04:58 am: |
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Actually I definitely do not care "one little bit" about HSU or SVS because I own and use several Velodyne subwoofers which work very well for me.
So yes it holds very true that I am no HSU or SVS internet fanatic or internet detractor. I have read many reviews where they both seem to offer good value vs performance and thats my limit of interest in purchacing any of them.
Truth is I hold just as big a gripe with the av123 hyperbole management, who sell things like Rocket and Diva speakers. These whipping boys also infest forums with consistant regurgitation of their sales brochure/s.
It is very disturbing that these brand wars are allowed to be festered by vested interest people, who either are company execs , workers for the company, or retailers. Many of whom just post as anonymous to keep it the hyperbole on top of the pack. I mean boys will be boys and we all will say that we have the biggest and best by nature. But lets not let the manufactures state his obviously biased opinion in a forum every 5 minutes.
I can honestly say that I have never posted in any subwoofer threads on AVS or HTF, except for the ones that contain interesting Velodyne info. My aim is to ignore radical arguments that go no where. What is the point of feeding it into a frenzy of repeating sales guff.
In this instant of HSU vs SVS, I am more concerned with why an internet sales company who seems to pretty much rely on the internet sales (HSU) post nothing in response to direct attacks on its design, product and reviews of such product.
If I was in the market for an SVS or HSU subwoofer and read some of the many forums, I would swear that buying a HSU was like going back to a steam powered automobile when compared to an SVS. I have not heard either brand, but going on the good reputation I would say that it is just the biased owner trying to jusify his purchace or just a sales droid wanting to get paid this week.
It is also disturbing to note that when someone mentions a good HSU review it is suddenly like the reviewers opinion was brought by DR HSU. If I was him I would be red hot mad and jumping down the throat of such a poster.
But obviously HSU as a company doesnt use posting within the forum/s as a sales tool. It seems as though even if they do sponser and advertise on the forum site it appears HSU do not take this as ownership.
Unlike the avs123 Rocket stuff which I find is more than a bit fishy how the snowball of company posts infect a forum at the sheer mention of opposing brand/model.
So it beats me a little why companies like HSU not only do not post at all. They do not even give a response to often very direct attacks. The only thing I can think of is it must have no effect on its sales so they can not be bothered.
I suppose for a consumer I like that policy because it is sort of like an confident arrogence, in that they let the product do all the talking.
[quote][b]
Then you go on to take a shot at HTF when in fact it is avsforum that is totally out of hand with the HSU vs SVS topics, and it is mainly because of one member there, bob23.[/b][/quote]
It is obvious that HTF is all about giving SVS pretty well free run of the house. I have seen the result of what happens when some other subwoofer brand besides SVS gathers momentum. The thread soon gets over-run with buy an SVS before wasting your money. This gets people upset and so the thread gets purposely locked up. That way it will go away from the gazing view of the buying public.
People like Bob23 might be a problem but I think the bigger drama is letting the forum get over ran by commercial interests. The whole thing is meant to be for fun and discussion not some ram it down your neck sales pitch in every thread. The forum managers need to stop the companies from turning the forums into a big advert.
Where the devil is my post? I certainly never brought the Jeff Kiel thread containing Eddie Leary to the top. In fact the thread was only started on the 11th Feb 03, so why the accusation? For a start I am not in the market for another subwoofer and I also do not care for either the vtf-2 or the PB1-ISD as I already have a HGS18 and a HGS15 which I find are excellent subwoofers.
AVS certainly needs to clamp down on all manufacturers staff who post way too often in mutiple threads either anonymous or under real names. After so many posts they are obviously in advertising mode and on the hunt for sales.
I think SVS should get its own forum on HTF like SMR do for Lexicon. That way as a consumer you know what you are getting when you enter the forum. It is then acceptable for the staff or fanatical owners to hyperbole the products all they want, just like Lexicon does with people like Philip Brandes.
I think the great harm is that we are getting way beyond helping customers with company execs doing a lot of posting. Instead we are into advertising which is not what a consumer should be walking into without a seat belt. |
D Davidson |
| Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 06:19 pm: |
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I think the great harm is that we are getting way beyond helping customers with company execs doing a lot of posting. Instead we are into advertising which is not what a consumer should be walking into without a seat belt.
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END QUOTE
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I agree its not a good situation when you look at it as though you are getting non biased advise. It seems that the forum admin guys allow it to continue because of the advertising money these manufacturers spend.
It is all a little corrupt if you do not know who is saying what. I even notice Tom Vodhanel on uk forums so he must keep busy on that pc promoting svs.
http://www.avforums.com
I am like you David in that I like tech support from people like Hsu and Svs but selling and promoting should not be allowed unless its on a specific forum designed for such.
Ddavidson |
D Davidson |
| Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 06:24 pm: |
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I am like you David in that I like tech support from people like Hsu and Svs but selling and promoting should not be allowed unless its on a specific forum designed for such.
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END QUOTE
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Opps sorry that was Danny not David.
My mistake.
Ddavidson |
Canman |
| Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 08:42 pm: |
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I think most of the subjective feedback from SVS and HSU bashers are pathetic. Not only do these companies instill a 30 day no questions asked return policy, but even further, they will still refund your money 'after the period' if the customer is still unsatisfied.
I find it great that reps/owners from SVS, HSU (yep), Ascend, AV123, etc are coming out to self market their products because......anyone.....if you don't like them, return them. So what does the consumer lose....bob, bassaholic, dingleberry (oops).... nothing; they are refunded their money and given the opportunity to audition an internet direct product and decide accordingly, but in their own homes and not some sound enhanced chambers unlike your real listening area. Sounds like a win/win - a cheaper better built no real advertising budget uninflated speaker with a full return. How could anyone be adverse to this interpretation??
Guys, get off the crack, do your math, and stop trying to make up for all the time you got beat up in high school! Maybe you really are a jerk, just keep the flaming off the boards without a lucid interpretation of the policy and mission statement of these companies.
For the record, I have only admiration for these guys. They did it the "hard" way - on their own with continuous support of their real life consumers. They didn't piggy back on the already established names, they ones bob and bassaholic buy at CC, BB, and WalMart. $50 off a sony sub at target, wow dude - those can smoke (did we say smoke already) a SVS. Maybe mom can drive you in her caravan.
Nuff with the bashing, but you guys are the sinners here, kudos to Tom, Ron, Mark, David and others for putting themselves on the chopping block out here for anyone to take a shot at. They will come back with facts, figures, graphs, and a whole slew of happy customers to support them.
BTW- Did SvS ever get a call?? Because if your friend was able to get a 110% return on his, here we go again, smoked SvS, he is either fictitous or smoking crack with you.
Keep up the good work, it grants average joes like me to get more, for less with getting real info before hand with complete support and guarantee on audio bliss. Is this an audio utopia???? |
Tom V. |
| Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 11:45 pm: |
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>>>It is all a little corrupt if you do not know who is saying what. I even notice Tom Vodhanel on uk forums so he must keep busy on that pc promoting svs.
http://www.avforums.com>>BTW- Did SvS ever get a call?? Because if your friend was able to get a 110% return on his, here we go again, smoked SvS, he is either fictitous or smoking crack with you.<<<
Of course not. This was pure fiction, introduced only to slander SVS. Too bad we can't run a ISP trail back to some of these *unhappy SVS owners*...I think you would all be shocked to see where the trails may lead.
Tom V.
SVS |
Tom V. |
| Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
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***It is all a little corrupt if you do not know who is saying what. I even notice Tom Vodhanel on uk forums so he must keep busy on that pc promoting svs.
http://www.avforums.com***
Bass reproduction is both a hobby and a passion of mine...as is HT in general. Before you begin accusing me of only being on a forum to *promote* SVS...please have the courtesy to do a little research. Why not check how many times I have introduced SVS as a topic matter to AVForums (or ANY public forum) and let everyone here know?
I can understand some folks not being 100% comfortable with a manufacturer posting on a public forum...but the feedback we get from the forum owners always indicates that for every one person not happy with it..99 think it is a good idea. In fact, almost every forum I do post at is a result of a personal invitation from the forums owners. I always attempt to base my thoughts on doucmented data and everyone knows I'm with SVS...so they know there is no hidden agenda. I would be more leary of the anonymous *john doe*'s out there who always claim to be here *just to warn everyone* about something or other. You guys know me, you know I'm with SVS. You may not agree with me (and that is ok) but at least you know who you are talking too.
>>>BTW- Did SvS ever get a call?? Because if your friend was able to get a 110% return on his, here we go again, smoked SvS, he is either fictitous or smoking crack with you.<<<
Of course not. This was pure fiction, introduced only to slander SVS. Too bad we can't run a ISP trail back to some of these *unhappy S | |
